1 00:00:07,550 --> 00:00:04,579 on this episode of skeptic Oh in the 2 00:00:09,350 --> 00:00:07,560 article that you wrote you cited his 3 00:00:11,930 --> 00:00:09,360 work and you said that his research 4 00:00:14,270 --> 00:00:11,940 delivered a blow to the idea that the 5 00:00:15,860 --> 00:00:14,280 mind and the brain could be separate do 6 00:00:18,290 --> 00:00:15,870 you remember this whole thing yes of 7 00:00:20,210 --> 00:00:18,300 course and he wrote me and said I 8 00:00:24,169 --> 00:00:20,220 disagree that is not what my research 9 00:00:26,870 --> 00:00:24,179 means and so we agreed to disagree how 10 00:00:28,909 --> 00:00:26,880 can you agree to just I mean if you said 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:28,919 his methods were wrong 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:32,130 or that his conclusions are well faulty 13 00:00:40,190 --> 00:00:35,250 but it's not in the methods it's in the 14 00:00:41,630 --> 00:00:40,200 interpretation of what it means I am 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:41,640 skeptical of some of the methods of how 16 00:00:47,780 --> 00:00:44,010 they interpret experiences that people 17 00:00:58,970 --> 00:00:47,790 report having stay with us for skeptic 18 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:01,620 today we welcome science historian 19 00:01:05,970 --> 00:01:03,220 best-selling author in one of the 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:05,980 world's best-known skeptics dr. Michael 21 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:08,290 Shermer - skeptic Oh dr. Shermer is here 22 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:09,790 to talk about his new book which is 23 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:12,040 quickly climbing the bestseller list on 24 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:14,350 Amazon and elsewhere the title of that 25 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:17,560 book the moral arc how science and 26 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:20,130 reason leads humanity towards truth 27 00:01:24,180 --> 00:01:22,240 justice and freedom 28 00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:24,190 dr. Shermer it's great to have you on 29 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:26,080 thanks so much for joining me on skeptic 30 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:27,460 code thanks for having me I appreciate 31 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:30,940 that so this issue that being morality 32 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:33,729 has been a hot topic and somewhat of a 33 00:01:38,570 --> 00:01:36,700 touchy topic among atheist skeptical 34 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:38,580 communities that you are a big part of 35 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:41,920 why is it that that has been such a hot 36 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:44,200 topic and such a touchy topic and what 37 00:01:48,350 --> 00:01:46,210 really I guess the question is what led 38 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:48,360 you to write this book about morality 39 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:51,610 sure well it's it's touchy in our in 40 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:53,050 American culture because we're such a 41 00:01:57,810 --> 00:01:54,930 religious nation that the idea that 42 00:01:59,670 --> 00:01:57,820 morals and moral values and moral 43 00:02:03,419 --> 00:01:59,680 progress can come from some source other 44 00:02:07,889 --> 00:02:03,429 than religion strikes most people as 45 00:02:11,309 --> 00:02:07,899 either crazy or or insulting you know 46 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:11,319 not just wrong but like like really evil 47 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:15,760 an evil idea and but in fact as I show 48 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:18,130 in the book cancer the second part of 49 00:02:21,540 --> 00:02:19,360 the question the book is something of an 50 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:21,550 extension of all my previous books you 51 00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:23,610 know which are pro reason pro science 52 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:25,780 trying to show how science and reason 53 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:27,700 for the best tools we have for 54 00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:29,590 understanding the world and and that 55 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:31,390 includes the moral world you know the 56 00:02:37,290 --> 00:02:34,330 moral sciences as David Hume he used to 57 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:37,300 call him the idea that ever since the 58 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:40,480 enlightenment philosophers then all the 59 00:02:45,270 --> 00:02:43,420 way up to scientists today tried to 60 00:02:46,740 --> 00:02:45,280 pattern themselves after the the 61 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:46,750 luminaries of the Scientific Revolution 62 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:49,420 who discovered that the world is 63 00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:51,370 governed by natural laws that can be 64 00:02:55,710 --> 00:02:53,860 understood through reason and empiricism 65 00:03:00,089 --> 00:02:55,720 through this this new tool called 66 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:00,099 science and and it turned out that it 67 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:00,790 really works 68 00:03:04,770 --> 00:03:03,010 I mean Newton showed that you could you 69 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:04,780 could describe both celestial and 70 00:03:09,450 --> 00:03:07,570 terrestrial mechanics using you know the 71 00:03:10,230 --> 00:03:09,460 same set of equations and that the 72 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:10,240 entire universe 73 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:11,710 is covered by natural law and it was 74 00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:13,930 shortly after that that all the great 75 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:15,550 philosophers in the Enlightenment that 76 00:03:19,980 --> 00:03:17,610 who were familiar with they they 77 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:19,990 subconsciously modeled themselves after 78 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:22,540 the scientists saying the social world 79 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:24,250 the moral world the political world the 80 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:26,650 economic world these are also governed 81 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:28,450 by natural laws and we can understand 82 00:03:32,220 --> 00:03:30,250 them and and try to make the world a 83 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:32,230 better place by by understanding them 84 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:34,420 you know I think you're right and I 85 00:03:40,110 --> 00:03:36,670 think you make a very strong case in the 86 00:03:42,390 --> 00:03:40,120 book for why that seemingly disconnect 87 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:42,400 between morality and science and reason 88 00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:45,310 maybe shouldn't be such a disconnect or 89 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:47,320 shouldn't catch us by surprise you know 90 00:03:53,790 --> 00:03:51,430 as a history of science buff research or 91 00:03:56,250 --> 00:03:53,800 scholar really you do a great job of 92 00:03:58,590 --> 00:03:56,260 connecting these shifts in moral 93 00:04:00,560 --> 00:03:58,600 behavior that many of us have 94 00:04:04,140 --> 00:04:00,570 experienced through our lifetime or 95 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:04,150 reduction in sexism or the way we treat 96 00:04:08,250 --> 00:04:05,980 people who are gay or lesbian or have a 97 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:08,260 different lifestyle and I think what you 98 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:10,780 do and you do a real nice job of this in 99 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:13,840 the book is show how these kinds of 100 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:16,210 shifts can't really be traced back to 101 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:17,980 religious breakthroughs it's not like 102 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:20,530 somebody discovered some scroll in some 103 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:22,750 cave and then said gee we should stop 104 00:04:27,150 --> 00:04:25,270 enslaving people but it really was 105 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:27,160 through science and reason wasn't it 106 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:29,560 yeah absolutely although I should point 107 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:31,420 out that you know the Mormon Church had 108 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:33,970 a new revelation from God that that 109 00:04:37,590 --> 00:04:36,280 polygamy was a bad idea after all right 110 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:37,600 around the time that you Tom would 111 00:04:40,590 --> 00:04:38,860 become a state in the Union and the 112 00:04:42,180 --> 00:04:40,600 federal government said well I think it 113 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:42,190 means the illegal and then they also had 114 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:43,510 another revelation from God that 115 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:45,820 african-americans are not as bad as they 116 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:47,500 thought they were right when they're 117 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:49,810 sort of racist doctrines collided with 118 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:51,970 the civil rights movement in the 1960s 119 00:04:58,440 --> 00:04:55,870 and 70s in 1978 God passed down a new a 120 00:05:01,500 --> 00:04:58,450 new ordinance saying you know actually 121 00:05:03,780 --> 00:05:01,510 everything Americans are ok so you know 122 00:05:07,170 --> 00:05:03,790 but normally what religious people do is 123 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:07,180 is they just inculcate the expanding 124 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:09,310 moral sphere that everybody else the 125 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:11,350 rising tide kind of brings along to 126 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:14,410 everybody and and then they cherry-pick 127 00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:17,890 passages in the Bible that sound more 128 00:05:22,590 --> 00:05:20,560 inclusive so they'll cite something like 129 00:05:24,090 --> 00:05:22,600 Moses saying that you know you should be 130 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:24,100 nice to Egyptians because you were 131 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:26,380 strangers in a strange land like they 132 00:05:30,780 --> 00:05:28,120 are here you know but of course that's 133 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:30,790 tucked away amongst you know dozens of 134 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:32,440 stories of rape and pillage and 135 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:34,780 destruction and murder and mayhem that 136 00:05:41,430 --> 00:05:38,260 Moses himself ordered his own people - 137 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:41,440 you know perpetrate upon others and or 138 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:42,970 they'll talk about Jesus being more 139 00:05:47,730 --> 00:05:45,910 expansive and and more liberal and nicer 140 00:05:49,950 --> 00:05:47,740 and that's true he's better than the Old 141 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:49,960 Testament gods but you know that those 142 00:05:54,510 --> 00:05:51,490 passages are themselves tucked away 143 00:05:56,900 --> 00:05:54,520 amongst passages that are anything but 144 00:06:00,290 --> 00:05:56,910 you know in the modern liberal tradition 145 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:00,300 so it really does come from the 146 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:02,890 invention of writes in the 17th and 18th 147 00:06:09,750 --> 00:06:06,250 centuries you can track it even in the 148 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:09,760 modern you know moral Crusaders like dr. 149 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:11,470 Martin Luther King you know he himself 150 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:13,630 says his primary influence was Gandhi 151 00:06:19,610 --> 00:06:15,730 was anything but a Christian and the 152 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:19,620 most liberal of theologians and so they 153 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:22,690 you know they they and and the arguments 154 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:25,060 they used for abolition of slavery were 155 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:27,760 were rights language kind of arguments 156 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:29,290 they weren't really quoting scripture 157 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:30,610 because you know scripture makes it 158 00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:32,560 pretty clear slavery is kind of cool and 159 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:33,550 he's good 160 00:06:37,740 --> 00:06:36,490 as long as you take care of them and you 161 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:37,750 know I mean the passages in the Old 162 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:39,130 Testament they were really quite 163 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:41,080 gruesome you know like what if you did 164 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:43,270 like one of them was I found kind of 165 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:46,890 forgot about was that if you that if you 166 00:06:53,730 --> 00:06:49,710 you can you can free one of your slaves 167 00:06:55,770 --> 00:06:53,740 after seven years but if you marry them 168 00:06:58,800 --> 00:06:55,780 first and then they have kids and a 169 00:07:00,660 --> 00:06:58,810 spouse that the kids and spouse are not 170 00:07:02,460 --> 00:07:00,670 allowed to go free so setting you know 171 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:02,470 setting one member of the family free is 172 00:07:07,350 --> 00:07:05,230 is you know is hardly you know a liberal 173 00:07:08,910 --> 00:07:07,360 thing to do you know a moral thing to do 174 00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:08,920 when they'd have to leave their family 175 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:12,300 and who's gonna do that you know so 176 00:07:16,110 --> 00:07:14,770 really all the arguments for the 177 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:16,120 abolition of slavery and all the other 178 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:17,830 rights revolutions all the way up to the 179 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:19,570 modern modern ones we're going through 180 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:21,490 right now are really infused with 181 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:23,850 Wright's language from the 18th century 182 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:27,160 so well said and you do a nice job in 183 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:29,380 the book of exploring several examples 184 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:30,490 of where that's come up and I think 185 00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:32,620 slavery is one of the most dramatic ones 186 00:07:37,530 --> 00:07:34,840 I'm comfortable with where you're at 187 00:07:40,380 --> 00:07:37,540 there and saying that religion and 188 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:40,390 scripture is off the table in terms of a 189 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:42,880 source for morality I'm a little bit 190 00:07:48,210 --> 00:07:45,910 less sure and I got a wonder about I 191 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:48,220 guess so many of the great scientists 192 00:07:52,350 --> 00:07:50,290 have told us some of the people you 193 00:07:54,660 --> 00:07:52,360 reference in the book Newton Tesla 194 00:07:56,340 --> 00:07:54,670 Edison others that your reference in the 195 00:07:58,740 --> 00:07:56,350 book you know claimed that they were 196 00:08:00,270 --> 00:07:58,750 connected to some kind of extended 197 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:00,280 consciousness so maybe this wasn't 198 00:08:04,620 --> 00:08:02,890 exactly from the Bible but they felt 199 00:08:07,470 --> 00:08:04,630 like they were tapping into something 200 00:08:09,450 --> 00:08:07,480 more something beyond themselves sure 201 00:08:11,010 --> 00:08:09,460 that maybe but I don't really care about 202 00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:11,020 that or I don't even care up there they 203 00:08:16,110 --> 00:08:13,270 were themselves religious that the 204 00:08:17,630 --> 00:08:16,120 sources of their ideas were not religion 205 00:08:20,730 --> 00:08:17,640 even if they're religious doesn't matter 206 00:08:22,170 --> 00:08:20,740 you know that the idea that like an you 207 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:22,180 know Newton was very religious he wrote 208 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:23,860 more about you know scripture and the 209 00:08:27,870 --> 00:08:25,330 inter proper interpretation of the Book 210 00:08:29,310 --> 00:08:27,880 of Daniel and so forth and he did you 211 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:29,320 know on physics well they wrote more 212 00:08:33,570 --> 00:08:30,490 about alchemy than he wrote about 213 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:33,580 Christianity so yeah exactly so I mean 214 00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:36,250 there that matters what matters is the 215 00:08:40,589 --> 00:08:37,950 principles that turned out to be true 216 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:40,599 verifiable by other people that and they 217 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:43,270 really work and that includes the ideas 218 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:46,390 of like John Locke and and Immanuel Kant 219 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:49,090 and Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin 220 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:51,850 and Thomas Paine Thomas Hobbes you know 221 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:53,710 all those great enlightenment 222 00:08:56,790 --> 00:08:54,850 philosophers we would call them 223 00:08:58,320 --> 00:08:56,800 scientists today they that word wasn't 224 00:09:00,510 --> 00:08:58,330 invented back then it was they were 225 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:00,520 natural philosophers but the idea was it 226 00:09:03,210 --> 00:09:01,570 doesn't matter I don't care how 227 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:03,220 religious they are I mean Thomas Hobbes 228 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:04,810 made his big argument in favor of the 229 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:06,670 monarchy but that none of us would 230 00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:09,370 embrace today but his idea that you know 231 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:13,270 the universe is knowable and its natural 232 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:15,460 laws govern societies that we should 233 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:17,710 discover what those are that's what has 234 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:20,830 changed the world right but when these 235 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:22,720 same people so you take Martin Luther 236 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:24,370 King who you referenced or in the book 237 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:26,950 you reference that really we associate 238 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:29,230 that term the moral arc with Martin 239 00:09:34,110 --> 00:09:30,850 Luther King but you trace it back even 240 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:34,120 further to theologian and abolitionist 241 00:09:39,990 --> 00:09:37,060 Theodore Parker you know both those guys 242 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:40,000 are saying hey there is something more 243 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:42,940 than I'm tapping into it's not just 244 00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:46,330 reason it's not just logic there's 245 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:48,820 something more do we have to take those 246 00:09:54,389 --> 00:09:51,430 claims into consideration 247 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:54,399 um well historically they're interesting 248 00:10:00,810 --> 00:09:58,450 I guess in a lot of dr. King's language 249 00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:00,820 was very metaphorical you know he his 250 00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:02,980 speeches were so brilliant so good 251 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:05,830 because he he'd wax very poetic using 252 00:10:13,050 --> 00:10:10,050 these biblical tropes and in religious 253 00:10:14,699 --> 00:10:13,060 phrases and sayings from songs and 254 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:14,709 previous speeches and things like that 255 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:17,620 he was so good at that but but again now 256 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:19,330 that really matters what matters is 257 00:10:24,090 --> 00:10:21,220 what's the arguments that were made to 258 00:10:26,010 --> 00:10:24,100 persuade people to change their minds 259 00:10:27,810 --> 00:10:26,020 about african-americans and civil rights 260 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:27,820 that's what we care about and that's 261 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:30,610 what we're identify it's you know the 262 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:32,380 actual rights language that people 263 00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:33,790 should be treated equally under the law 264 00:10:38,519 --> 00:10:35,350 where does that come from 265 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:38,529 or that that no person should be a means 266 00:10:41,310 --> 00:10:39,490 to an end 267 00:10:44,070 --> 00:10:41,320 but it ends in of themselves that's 268 00:10:46,199 --> 00:10:44,080 Immanuel Kant okay but where does that 269 00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:46,209 come from I guess in the book you make 270 00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:49,120 the case and trace it back to evolution 271 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:51,279 and the behavior of social primates I 272 00:10:55,470 --> 00:10:53,260 mean that's ultimately where you come 273 00:10:58,890 --> 00:10:55,480 down on to in terms of where it comes 274 00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:58,900 from right oh I do yes I say that my 275 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:00,640 moral starting point is the survival and 276 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:02,160 flourishing of sentient beings 277 00:11:07,260 --> 00:11:05,050 individual sentient beings my groups not 278 00:11:09,570 --> 00:11:07,270 races and that genders not nations and 279 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:09,580 states and collectives at any time at 280 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:10,930 the individual the whole Bill of Rights 281 00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:13,390 is designed to protect individuals from 282 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:15,580 being discriminated against as a member 283 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:17,800 of a group that it doesn't matter what 284 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:19,600 religion you are race creed color 285 00:11:24,030 --> 00:11:21,670 whatever you're an individual and by 286 00:11:27,210 --> 00:11:24,040 virtue of being human you have these 287 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:27,220 natural rights so I I'm definitely a 288 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:29,170 natural rights person not a utilitarian 289 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:31,390 because like with the trolley problem 290 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:33,490 you know the trolleys hurling down the 291 00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:34,690 tracks gonna kill the five workers 292 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:37,120 unless you flip the switch and it sends 293 00:11:40,199 --> 00:11:38,410 it down the other track and kills the 294 00:11:41,819 --> 00:11:40,209 one worker would you kill the one to 295 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:41,829 save the five almost everybody says they 296 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:43,930 would it makes sense it's utilitarian 297 00:11:49,139 --> 00:11:47,050 calculus but in fact this is a problem 298 00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:49,149 because first of all how does the one 299 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:51,760 person feel about it and second you know 300 00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,230 being sacrificed and second of all it's 301 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:55,360 too easy to ratchet up their from you 302 00:11:59,850 --> 00:11:57,130 know kill one to save five to kill ten 303 00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:59,860 million to save 50 million and pretty 304 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:01,120 soon you have yourself a genocide you 305 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:02,890 know we really need to kill these 10 306 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:05,260 million Jews in Europe to save the pure 307 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:08,230 Varian's or whatever it's too easy we're 308 00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:10,720 we're too easily swayed by bad ideas by 309 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:13,600 pseudoscience by nonsense there's this 310 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:15,460 whole race and blood and eugenics and 311 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:17,470 all this stuff is or which burning you 312 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:18,790 know we have to burn these witches to 313 00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,250 save our community from plagues and bad 314 00:12:26,850 --> 00:12:23,440 weather you know that these are just bad 315 00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,860 ideas that that science debunks and so 316 00:12:31,380 --> 00:12:28,480 the progress that progress comes from 317 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:31,390 reason in science primarily I'm with you 318 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:33,190 on all about it we're disconnecting on 319 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:34,510 one point you know I have an interview 320 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:37,210 coming up with renowned theoretical 321 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:39,610 physicist dr. Lawrence Krauss I know you 322 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:41,890 know him and I was just watching the 323 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:44,290 movie he did with Richard Dawkins and 324 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:45,970 you make a brief appearance in that film 325 00:12:53,730 --> 00:12:50,080 the unbelievers and in so here is the 326 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:53,740 state of science if you will with dr. 327 00:12:58,640 --> 00:12:55,690 Krauss saying in a very matter-of-fact 328 00:13:00,780 --> 00:12:58,650 way that the universe is meaningless 329 00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:00,790 therefore our lives are meaningless 330 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:04,030 except for any illusionary meaning we 331 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:06,610 might attach to them with this thing we 332 00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:08,410 called consciousness which is really 333 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:10,780 just a product of our brain you know I 334 00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:13,570 just think you're kind of making a 335 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:15,520 little bit of sleight of hand if you 336 00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:17,580 accept this meaningless universe 337 00:13:24,030 --> 00:13:20,920 meaningless lives thing but then try and 338 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:24,040 roll it back into social behavior of 339 00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:25,990 primates I mean those primates are still 340 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:28,540 in a meaningless world doing meaningless 341 00:13:33,330 --> 00:13:30,670 things if that's where you sit how do 342 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:33,340 you get morality in there I don't quite 343 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:37,170 get that fit uh-huh well certainly 344 00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:39,250 Lawrence is correct that the universe 345 00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:41,200 itself is meaningless there's nothing 346 00:13:47,730 --> 00:13:44,620 outside of it saying you dear universe 347 00:13:50,130 --> 00:13:47,740 have meaning you know this is it but 348 00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:50,140 within it you know start the meaning of 349 00:13:55,860 --> 00:13:52,780 a star it's its reason for being is to 350 00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:55,870 convert hydrogen into helium and so 351 00:13:59,790 --> 00:13:58,090 forth the other elements when it dies 352 00:14:01,500 --> 00:13:59,800 you know that's its purpose that's its 353 00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:01,510 meaning that's what nature designed it 354 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:04,060 to do by by dint of the laws of nature 355 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:05,470 that's what gravity does under high 356 00:14:11,010 --> 00:14:08,710 pressure by the same principle of 357 00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:11,020 natural laws evolution designed us to 358 00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,240 want to survive to give us a you know a 359 00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:16,000 a life instinct to you know to want to 360 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:17,740 breathe - want to eat to want to 361 00:14:20,910 --> 00:14:19,210 procreate - one 362 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:20,920 if you're a social species to want to 363 00:14:24,690 --> 00:14:22,450 socialize with other members of your 364 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:24,700 species and all the things that we find 365 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:27,280 meaningful as a social primate species 366 00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:29,470 that that's what evolution designed us 367 00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,480 to do let me I shouldn't use that word 368 00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:33,600 design that's what natural selection 369 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:37,300 created in the process this and you know 370 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:38,650 this is all this all goes back to 371 00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:40,750 Dawkins thought experiment at the 372 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:42,700 beginning of the Selfish Gene imagine 373 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:43,930 you're a molecule what would you do to 374 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:47,050 survive and and so you have to create a 375 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:48,910 survival machine an organism to carry 376 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:51,190 your genes into the future generations 377 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:52,720 well these organisms have to be 378 00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:54,580 motivated to do certain things like eat 379 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:55,780 procreate 380 00:15:00,990 --> 00:14:58,090 you know flourish find food find mates 381 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:01,000 you know and so forth so they have to be 382 00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:02,290 they have to have these emotions that 383 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:04,000 drive them to do things well they also 384 00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:06,850 have to have moral emotions because the 385 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:08,860 difference is Richard points out between 386 00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:10,360 kicking a rock and kicking another 387 00:15:14,070 --> 00:15:11,920 survival machine is that the other 388 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:14,080 survival machine will kick you back it 389 00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:16,930 doesn't want to be exploited so we have 390 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:19,120 these emotions of you know standing up 391 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:21,010 for ourselves fighting back feeling 392 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:24,190 anger and vengeful about about being 393 00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:27,580 cheated or being aggressed against and 394 00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:30,160 so on so all of that comes out of our 395 00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:32,830 biological nature just by dint of being 396 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:35,440 human or even broader than that 397 00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:37,750 a sentient being of some kind you know 398 00:15:42,270 --> 00:15:40,540 social primate species a mammal whatever 399 00:15:45,450 --> 00:15:42,280 however far you want to expand that 400 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:45,460 sphere gives you that drive it comes 401 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:48,250 with the territory no less than a star 402 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:50,470 burning hydrogen and helium by the laws 403 00:15:56,460 --> 00:15:54,730 of gravity well maybe I mean let's put a 404 00:15:58,800 --> 00:15:56,470 big maybe on all that I think there's 405 00:16:01,610 --> 00:15:58,810 for most people there's a huge leap 406 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:01,620 between saying meaningless universe 407 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:04,210 consciousness is an illusion we're all 408 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:06,370 basically biological robots which is 409 00:16:11,370 --> 00:16:09,490 what Dawkins says - there's a moral arc 410 00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:11,380 that we're moving towards and we're 411 00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:13,600 making things good and better because of 412 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:16,000 our drive to survive I mean I think 413 00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,130 there's a major disconnect there for 414 00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:20,560 most people especially when we when we 415 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:23,800 connect them but with people like Martin 416 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:26,250 Luther King and other folks who clearly 417 00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:29,650 believe that their impulse is driven by 418 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:32,800 something outside of them something more 419 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:35,380 I think connects a lot of people now as 420 00:16:40,259 --> 00:16:38,010 you point out it connects them probably 421 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:40,269 incorrectly with some kind of religious 422 00:16:45,150 --> 00:16:42,370 traditions that we can point at and say 423 00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:45,160 have some problems but I'm sure you hear 424 00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:47,320 this a lot that people aren't quite in 425 00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,079 sync with how we can bridge those two 426 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:52,800 worlds between the atheistic kind of 427 00:16:58,500 --> 00:16:56,130 reductionistic science world and this 428 00:16:59,579 --> 00:16:58,510 spiritual but not religious world 429 00:17:02,310 --> 00:16:59,589 mmm-hmm 430 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:02,320 well first of all what I predict will 431 00:17:05,699 --> 00:17:03,790 happen with the gay rights revolution 432 00:17:06,809 --> 00:17:05,709 same-sex marriage revolution is what's 433 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:06,819 happened with all of them 434 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:09,370 that is to say religions will get on 435 00:17:13,799 --> 00:17:11,980 board they already are piss Kop aliens 436 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:13,809 were already were and now you know 437 00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:15,250 slowly but surely the Baptists and 438 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:17,380 Presbyterians and others are getting on 439 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:20,290 the on the on the wagon the moral wagon 440 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:22,660 here and five in five to ten years they 441 00:17:26,340 --> 00:17:23,890 will all say you know what 442 00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:26,350 God loves everybody including gays and 443 00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:27,520 what were those people thinking back 444 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:28,960 then well you were one of those people 445 00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:31,650 thinking back that mm not you Alex the 446 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:34,559 religious person making this claim and 447 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:37,210 and so they somehow changed their mind 448 00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,490 and how does that happen well because of 449 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:41,200 this Benny moral art by the fact that 450 00:17:46,169 --> 00:17:44,290 all of us collectively slowly change our 451 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:46,179 mind slowly expand the moral horizon 452 00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,650 include more and more people more and 453 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:49,360 more sentient beings who are not 454 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:52,510 immediate members members of our mediate 455 00:17:55,919 --> 00:17:54,610 kin and kind and family and in-group the 456 00:17:58,830 --> 00:17:55,929 in-group just keeps getting bigger and 457 00:18:01,230 --> 00:17:58,840 bigger women minorities you know now 458 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:01,240 gays now animals the animal rights you 459 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:02,590 know a whole chapter on animal rights um 460 00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:05,650 but but and on one level I don't care 461 00:18:10,409 --> 00:18:08,350 how they got there as long as they get 462 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:10,419 there yeah you know technically 463 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:12,250 historically I like to point out you 464 00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:13,570 know it wasn't really religion that 465 00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:15,550 abolished slavery you know it was it was 466 00:18:19,169 --> 00:18:17,080 the rights revolution that did it from 467 00:18:20,669 --> 00:18:19,179 the Enlightenment but anyway if as long 468 00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:20,679 as they they're on board with it I'm 469 00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:23,440 happy about that that's good but let me 470 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:25,270 just back up one to the previous point 471 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:27,970 um you know so in the book I make an 472 00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:30,970 analogy with the with public health you 473 00:18:35,790 --> 00:18:32,320 know the whole for for two centuries 474 00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:35,800 we've been you know creating sewers and 475 00:18:40,290 --> 00:18:38,200 sanitation systems and flush toilets and 476 00:18:42,570 --> 00:18:40,300 we've been studying diseases and plagues 477 00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:42,580 and tracking how they move all with a 478 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:45,590 goal an end to 479 00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:47,690 for more people to survive and flourish 480 00:18:52,419 --> 00:18:49,640 in our societies for fewer people that 481 00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:52,429 died of smallpox and measles and and so 482 00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,049 on and in the current anti-vaccination 483 00:18:58,210 --> 00:18:56,240 movement has everybody wringing their 484 00:18:59,680 --> 00:18:58,220 hands because this could be bad news you 485 00:19:02,769 --> 00:18:59,690 know people could die from these bad 486 00:19:05,289 --> 00:19:02,779 ideas okay if you agree that you know 487 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:05,299 saving hundreds of millions of lives who 488 00:19:10,269 --> 00:19:07,390 used to die from smallpox and and 489 00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:10,279 measles and so on and no longer do if 490 00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:12,470 you agree that's a good thing why is it 491 00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:15,350 a good thing why why you Alex I'm asking 492 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:17,059 you why why would you agree that that's 493 00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:19,730 a good thing I'm not sure why would I 494 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:22,340 mean do I agree or why would I well okay 495 00:19:25,570 --> 00:19:24,110 first do you agree that that's a good 496 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:25,580 thing to save hundreds of millions of 497 00:19:30,909 --> 00:19:28,850 lives sure yeah okay why but see I have 498 00:19:34,149 --> 00:19:30,919 a different sensibility in terms of why 499 00:19:37,090 --> 00:19:34,159 I think that's so so well I just be 500 00:19:40,149 --> 00:19:37,100 curious to hear it I think that there is 501 00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:40,159 a moral imperative that drives me 502 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:42,080 whether I'm totally conscious of it or 503 00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:44,840 not and I think what you were referring 504 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:46,580 to I would see as some kind of 505 00:19:51,399 --> 00:19:49,130 collective consciousness that does exist 506 00:19:54,370 --> 00:19:51,409 even if I can't totally describe it or 507 00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:54,380 pin it down in a lot of ways so oh you 508 00:19:58,500 --> 00:19:56,990 mean like in a like a deep hoc kind of 509 00:20:01,720 --> 00:19:58,510 way that there's a consciousness 510 00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:01,730 pervasive in the cosmos maybe in a Carl 511 00:20:06,909 --> 00:20:04,700 Jung or really okay that's it's 512 00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:06,919 Sheldrick Rupert Sheldrake Cambridge 513 00:20:11,409 --> 00:20:09,350 biologist oh wow okay residents right 514 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:11,419 well yeah we'll have to agree to 515 00:20:15,490 --> 00:20:13,370 disagree on that one because I don't 516 00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:15,500 accept the existence of a cosmic 517 00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:18,559 consciousness but okay well I could be 518 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:20,390 wrong tell you well let me tell you this 519 00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:22,610 because last week we scheduled this 520 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:25,100 interview you're very generous to do it 521 00:20:28,779 --> 00:20:26,690 I know you've done a lot of interviews 522 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:28,789 for this book I sent out the 523 00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:30,950 announcement to skeptical listeners the 524 00:20:35,950 --> 00:20:33,620 number one question I got back to ask 525 00:20:38,380 --> 00:20:35,960 you and I think it's relevant to this 526 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:38,390 latest bit of conversation we were just 527 00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:42,529 having in it they said ask him about the 528 00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:44,360 piece he wrote in scientific America 529 00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:48,460 March 2003 in which you cited a paper 530 00:20:52,570 --> 00:20:51,679 from dr. PIM van Lommel a near-death 531 00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:52,580 experience 532 00:20:56,830 --> 00:20:54,830 researcher who published we should say 533 00:20:59,360 --> 00:20:56,840 and one of the top medical journals in 534 00:21:02,420 --> 00:20:59,370 the world in 2001 in the land 535 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:02,430 said in the article that you wrote you 536 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:04,710 cited his work and you said that his 537 00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:07,110 research delivered a blow to the idea 538 00:21:10,670 --> 00:21:08,880 that the mind and the brain could be 539 00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,680 separate do you remember this whole 540 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:13,440 thing yes of course and he wrote me and 541 00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:15,630 said I disagree that is not what my 542 00:21:21,770 --> 00:21:17,760 research means and so we agreed to 543 00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:21,780 disagree how can you agree to just I 544 00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:24,240 mean if you said his methods were wrong 545 00:21:30,860 --> 00:21:28,700 or that his conclusions about faulty but 546 00:21:35,780 --> 00:21:30,870 it's not in the methods it's in the 547 00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:35,790 interpretation of what it means I am 548 00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:37,230 skeptical of some of the methods of how 549 00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:39,480 they interpret experiences that people 550 00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:41,820 report having because there is a little 551 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:44,400 gray area there there is a little you 552 00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:46,650 know fuzziness or subjectivity and how 553 00:21:52,820 --> 00:21:50,040 those reports are interpreted that part 554 00:21:54,380 --> 00:21:52,830 it's not that he's wrong it's that so 555 00:21:56,419 --> 00:21:54,390 much is that you know there's different 556 00:21:59,630 --> 00:21:56,429 ways to interpret what those experiences 557 00:22:02,930 --> 00:21:59,640 actually mean right maybe inside of that 558 00:22:05,299 --> 00:22:02,940 but I think this gets at the issue that 559 00:22:08,299 --> 00:22:05,309 I think a lot of people have with the 560 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:08,309 skeptical atheist community is that 561 00:22:14,169 --> 00:22:11,130 after a while it kind of feels like 562 00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:14,179 there's this pattern of I don't know 563 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:17,100 disinformation misinformation because 564 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:19,770 when a guy ports the research you can 565 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:22,050 either say I disagree with the research 566 00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:24,450 or I disagree with the methods but you 567 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:27,360 can't say oh what that research says is 568 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:29,910 this yes yes you can of course you can 569 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:30,750 the whole point of the discussion 570 00:22:35,299 --> 00:22:32,970 section at the end of a paper that's 571 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:35,309 where the you know the sort of boldness 572 00:22:40,340 --> 00:22:38,490 of the researcher and and the you know 573 00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:40,350 the counter-arguments of the of the 574 00:22:43,940 --> 00:22:42,000 critics that's where all the action is 575 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:43,950 that's where it comes is how do you 576 00:22:49,330 --> 00:22:46,110 interpret the data and what what kind of 577 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:49,340 model are you using so for example 578 00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:52,500 Oliver Sacks wrote he's written several 579 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:54,270 critical pieces of that that very 580 00:22:58,220 --> 00:22:56,250 research that another pieces of research 581 00:22:59,840 --> 00:22:58,230 saying no it does not mean what these 582 00:23:03,290 --> 00:22:59,850 guys think it means I think it means the 583 00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:03,300 following and he makes the case that if 584 00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:04,679 you read any of his books you know the 585 00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:06,300 experiences that these people have are 586 00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:08,880 clearly tied to neuro chemical 587 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:10,980 imbalances and damages to the brain 588 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:12,930 strokes and tumors 589 00:23:16,790 --> 00:23:15,030 stuff like that and in that if you knock 590 00:23:19,610 --> 00:23:16,800 out a part of the brain a temporal lobe 591 00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:19,620 the function part that was there is gone 592 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:22,580 well where to go I mean like with a 593 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:26,010 split brain patient there should be now 594 00:23:31,910 --> 00:23:28,230 two two sources of consciousness you 595 00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:31,920 know not not one you know does that mean 596 00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:34,140 there's two two conscious brain 597 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:36,240 somewhere floating around in the in the 598 00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:38,610 ether somewhere I mean what so well I 599 00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:40,470 don't think we know what it means but I 600 00:23:44,990 --> 00:23:43,260 think what's happened since the van 601 00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:45,000 Lommel paper and I don't want to focus 602 00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:47,280 on that I appreciate your position on it 603 00:23:52,580 --> 00:23:49,740 but there's just been a continuation of 604 00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:52,590 research published near-death experience 605 00:23:56,150 --> 00:23:54,660 research one after another these guys 606 00:23:58,670 --> 00:23:56,160 aren't lined up they don't have some big 607 00:24:01,250 --> 00:23:58,680 agenda to kind of push something they're 608 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:01,260 just producing research the latest was a 609 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:04,890 ten year study by Sam par Nia formerly 610 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:07,590 of Cornell and a group of researchers in 611 00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:10,410 the UK came to the exact same conclusion 612 00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:12,000 there isn't a single near-death 613 00:24:16,130 --> 00:24:13,830 experience researchers that's come to a 614 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:16,140 different conclusion but it's not just 615 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:18,330 near-death experience research you know 616 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:20,370 I mean right there you're in Los Angeles 617 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:22,170 you can drive right up the street to 618 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:26,370 UCLA and you can go visit UCLA School of 619 00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:29,010 Medicine psychiatrist dr. Jeffery 620 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:32,700 Schwartz same stuff you know coming out 621 00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:35,250 and saying that the this idea that the 622 00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:37,980 mind is a product of the brain doesn't 623 00:24:43,610 --> 00:24:41,580 fit we have to look for more it opens up 624 00:24:46,670 --> 00:24:43,620 the door to the kind of extended 625 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:46,680 consciousness that I think so many 626 00:24:52,550 --> 00:24:50,340 people that do have this religious 627 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:52,560 inclination or spiritual inclination 628 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:53,910 because I don't want to say religious 629 00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:56,910 I'm not a backer of religion but I think 630 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:00,000 people are much more open to the idea 631 00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:04,290 that there is a reality to that moral 632 00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:07,830 compass inside them that does come from 633 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:10,260 something other than their mere biology 634 00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:12,930 and I just don't think that's where the 635 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:15,390 book I guess rings true in terms of 636 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:19,490 encompassing in that larger body of work 637 00:25:23,390 --> 00:25:21,930 okay so take something like gay rights 638 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:23,400 and same-sex marriage now so we're in 639 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:24,810 the middle of this revolution and we can 640 00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:25,710 track how 641 00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:29,039 that changes happen and we can see it in 642 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:31,110 the polls the pupils Gallup polls how 643 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:33,390 people slowly change their mind and we 644 00:25:36,889 --> 00:25:35,250 can track how it happens when like with 645 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:36,899 the coming out campaign for example 646 00:25:42,049 --> 00:25:38,760 celebrities authors politicians 647 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:42,059 scientists CEOs like Tim Cook coming out 648 00:25:47,659 --> 00:25:44,730 you know that this changes how people 649 00:25:50,210 --> 00:25:47,669 think about gays instead of thinking of 650 00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,220 gays as something other or something 651 00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:52,080 less than human are different so 652 00:25:56,029 --> 00:25:53,760 different they don't deserve the same 653 00:25:57,889 --> 00:25:56,039 rights or or that they have these you 654 00:26:00,380 --> 00:25:57,899 know this gay agenda that they want to 655 00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:00,390 impose on the rest of us and you know 656 00:26:05,049 --> 00:26:02,820 the more that people know somebody who's 657 00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,059 gay the less they think those bad ideas 658 00:26:10,130 --> 00:26:08,159 and and that happens from the bottom up 659 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:10,140 through television pop culture books 660 00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:13,080 novels films you know newspaper articles 661 00:26:17,060 --> 00:26:15,600 just it just sort of cascades along you 662 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:17,070 don't need a majority to get started you 663 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:18,510 just need a handful of influential 664 00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:21,330 people to first stand up and say we're 665 00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,260 not going to take this kind of 666 00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:24,720 discrimination anymore and then you know 667 00:26:28,669 --> 00:26:26,460 we want the same rights as you and then 668 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:28,679 you know look tons of people that you 669 00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:30,090 know are like this and they're normal 670 00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:31,289 people and before you know it the whole 671 00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:33,390 thing changes and I don't think there's 672 00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:35,190 anything whatever word you want to use 673 00:26:39,019 --> 00:26:36,990 mystical or having to do with 674 00:26:40,730 --> 00:26:39,029 consciousness other than you know all of 675 00:26:42,649 --> 00:26:40,740 us change our minds you know over the 676 00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:42,659 course of a few years to a few decades 677 00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:44,580 and before you know it the shift has 678 00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:46,289 been made and I think you can track all 679 00:26:50,899 --> 00:26:48,360 that through sociology psychology 680 00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:50,909 anthropology political science I don't 681 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,470 think you need say consciousness 682 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:54,960 research for that other than out brains 683 00:26:59,389 --> 00:26:56,730 change their mind well I don't I don't 684 00:27:01,580 --> 00:26:59,399 know if you do or not I guess I mean I 685 00:27:04,639 --> 00:27:01,590 think that you make us very strong point 686 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:04,649 for the fact that we can't trace that to 687 00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:07,289 any particular set of beliefs that are 688 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:09,539 enshrined in some kind of religious 689 00:27:14,389 --> 00:27:11,610 mystery or anything like that I'm with 690 00:27:17,659 --> 00:27:14,399 you there but I think at the end of the 691 00:27:19,070 --> 00:27:17,669 day we have to be open to all the 692 00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:19,080 possibilities of what that could mean 693 00:27:24,110 --> 00:27:21,149 and when you say why we wouldn't trace 694 00:27:26,269 --> 00:27:24,120 it to some mystical consciousness that 695 00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:26,279 begs the big question of what is 696 00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,049 consciousness and I think when we don't 697 00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:30,720 tackle that question we don't wrestle it 698 00:27:35,299 --> 00:27:33,240 to the ground we're left open with the 699 00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:35,309 same kind of disconnect of saying well 700 00:27:39,010 --> 00:27:37,740 it's somehow a feature of biological 701 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:39,020 primates 702 00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:40,850 yet we're still saying they have some 703 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:43,160 kind of conscious experience that we can 704 00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:44,930 explain we don't understand where it 705 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:46,520 starts where it ends or any of the rest 706 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:48,650 of that maybe you don't see that as a 707 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:52,010 big problem to the moral question I take 708 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:55,210 it I don't I don't think we need that as 709 00:27:59,470 --> 00:27:56,810 explanatory 710 00:28:03,010 --> 00:27:59,480 vector in our model of how things change 711 00:28:04,810 --> 00:28:03,020 morally yeah I mean I don't discount it 712 00:28:06,610 --> 00:28:04,820 I guess I just don't even really think 713 00:28:08,050 --> 00:28:06,620 about it I mean it's just not not in my 714 00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,060 worldview my worldview is you know I'm a 715 00:28:11,740 --> 00:28:11,120 monist I'm a naturalist but you know I 716 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:11,750 don't think there's anything 717 00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:14,210 supernatural or or whatever you'd want 718 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:15,920 to call it but but on it let me just 719 00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:17,990 make one final point in that let's say 720 00:28:21,940 --> 00:28:20,510 that turned out to be true the the 721 00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:21,950 near-death experiences really do 722 00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:24,020 represent you know a connection to some 723 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:26,240 other world and we were able to figure 724 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:28,370 out where that is and how the connection 725 00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:30,290 is made through quantum physics a and 726 00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:33,620 neural neuroscience and and maybe you 727 00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:34,670 know the idea that there's these 728 00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:36,950 microtubules inside neurons where the 729 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:38,900 collapse of the wavefunction happens and 730 00:28:42,370 --> 00:28:40,730 there's a you know there's a quantum 731 00:28:44,260 --> 00:28:42,380 effect there and we can we can connect 732 00:28:46,570 --> 00:28:44,270 with each other that that would no 733 00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:46,580 longer be part of the supernatural or 734 00:28:50,050 --> 00:28:48,260 paranormal it would just be part of 735 00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:50,060 physics and in neuroscience it would 736 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:51,980 just be incorporated into science if it 737 00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:54,170 turns out to be true so I really 738 00:28:58,210 --> 00:28:56,480 wouldn't change my worldview it would 739 00:29:00,100 --> 00:28:58,220 just be one more causal vector to 740 00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:00,110 include in our equation so to speak of 741 00:29:04,150 --> 00:29:02,270 you know how what why things happen in 742 00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,160 the world is they do and if it turned 743 00:29:09,010 --> 00:29:06,320 out that the universe really is bending 744 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:09,020 you know in a moral arc you know for 745 00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:11,330 some reason other than what I document 746 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:14,480 and in the moral arc you know that 747 00:29:17,770 --> 00:29:16,370 that's fine I don't care I mean it's 748 00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,780 it's all still part of the natural world 749 00:29:21,730 --> 00:29:19,760 as far as I'm concerned as long as 750 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:21,740 science can measure it it's a 751 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:23,810 quantifiable way we can you know test it 752 00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:25,490 there it is see it you can measure it 753 00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:27,140 like quantum quantum effects can be 754 00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:29,000 measured if that was indeed the case 755 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:31,040 then that would just be part of the 756 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:31,730 natural world 757 00:29:37,780 --> 00:29:34,210 would you agree well unless 758 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:37,790 consciousness is in some way fundamental 759 00:29:43,390 --> 00:29:40,370 oh yeah okay yeah I see which is a 760 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:43,400 viable alternative way to interpret even 761 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:44,960 some of the quantum effects that we're 762 00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:47,210 talking about right so the little double 763 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:49,070 slit experiment is a wave is it a 764 00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:50,930 particle it depends on the observer I'm 765 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:52,760 not saying that there's a 766 00:29:57,940 --> 00:29:55,130 recked link there but that hints at some 767 00:29:59,800 --> 00:29:57,950 in some way and many researchers as well 768 00:30:02,170 --> 00:29:59,810 as philosophers have suggested that 769 00:30:03,970 --> 00:30:02,180 maybe in some way consciousness is 770 00:30:06,670 --> 00:30:03,980 fundamental a lot of folks in the 771 00:30:11,290 --> 00:30:06,680 Atheist community are into kind of a 772 00:30:13,780 --> 00:30:11,300 very secular version of Buddhism and 773 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:13,790 meditation sam harris of course is I 774 00:30:20,260 --> 00:30:16,970 mean the basic thought philosophy behind 775 00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:20,270 that is purely that that consciousness 776 00:30:24,130 --> 00:30:22,280 is fundamental consciousness is the 777 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:24,140 source and that the matter that we're 778 00:30:28,270 --> 00:30:27,110 measuring as scientists is kind of 779 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:28,280 looking in the wrong end of the 780 00:30:33,550 --> 00:30:30,670 telescope because it originates with 781 00:30:35,710 --> 00:30:33,560 consciousness yeah so for your listeners 782 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:35,720 I should point out that most 783 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:37,820 neurosciences do not agree with that you 784 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:40,280 can you can find some you cited UCLA and 785 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:42,610 a few other places yes okay that's fine 786 00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:45,110 but you know Christoph Kok you know at 787 00:30:49,810 --> 00:30:47,360 the Allen is too firmly at Caltech it 788 00:30:51,580 --> 00:30:49,820 Sam Harris does not agree with with 789 00:30:53,890 --> 00:30:51,590 Deepak in that argument that 790 00:30:56,410 --> 00:30:53,900 consciousness is fundamental property of 791 00:30:58,090 --> 00:30:56,420 the universe he does not think that even 792 00:31:01,120 --> 00:30:58,100 though he you know what where he goes 793 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:01,130 with his own theories on consciousness 794 00:31:06,850 --> 00:31:03,890 and meditation and spirituality are 795 00:31:08,530 --> 00:31:06,860 quite different than most atheists he's 796 00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:08,540 still not in that camp he's not in the 797 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:11,390 say Deepak Chopra camp he definitely 798 00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:15,050 disagrees with that so you know and so 799 00:31:19,330 --> 00:31:17,420 that kind of brings us back to you know 800 00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:19,340 where you start with a worldview if you 801 00:31:22,270 --> 00:31:20,990 start that consciousness is fundamental 802 00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:22,280 the universe you're gonna end up 803 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:24,110 somewhere different than if you start 804 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:26,390 off with same consciousness as a product 805 00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:29,090 just of brains right or you can just 806 00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:30,470 start with the data and just try and 807 00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:31,700 sift through the data and see where it 808 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:34,220 falls and I'm not sure I don't sure you 809 00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:35,930 can do that I'm not sure that the data 810 00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:38,390 indicate for sure one way or the other 811 00:31:43,690 --> 00:31:40,760 although I make the case in another 812 00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:43,700 column in Scientific American that I 813 00:31:47,860 --> 00:31:45,860 think I call it Aunt Millie's mind 814 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:47,870 because I asked Deepak one time at one 815 00:31:52,150 --> 00:31:49,910 of his conferences where does aunt 816 00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:52,160 millie's mind go when her brain dies of 817 00:31:56,650 --> 00:31:54,500 Alzheimer's you know we know that you 818 00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:56,660 know the neurons die you know one by one 819 00:32:00,190 --> 00:31:58,610 and as they go her mind goes her memory 820 00:32:02,290 --> 00:32:00,200 goes her personality shrinks and 821 00:32:04,780 --> 00:32:02,300 disappears and pretty soon she's just 822 00:32:06,670 --> 00:32:04,790 gone well where did it go I mean if if 823 00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:06,680 it exists separate from brain 824 00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:08,870 why does it why is it tied to the brain 825 00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:10,910 neuron by neuron and where is it now 826 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:13,430 deep box answer was well aunt millie's 827 00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:15,290 mind returned to where it began to the 828 00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:16,880 you know the cause the cosmic 829 00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:18,740 consciousness er I forget the phrasing 830 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:20,480 he used but it was something like what 831 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:22,250 you're talking about well how would you 832 00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:24,770 test that you know you can assert it you 833 00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:26,240 can make an assertion that's where it 834 00:32:32,050 --> 00:32:30,350 goes but but how do we know well I think 835 00:32:35,740 --> 00:32:32,060 first of all I think you you obviously 836 00:32:37,150 --> 00:32:35,750 have a very broad understanding this and 837 00:32:39,310 --> 00:32:37,160 you've fought a lot about it which i 838 00:32:40,990 --> 00:32:39,320 think is fantastic and I appreciate you 839 00:32:42,970 --> 00:32:41,000 entertaining these thoughts I don't want 840 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:42,980 to carry this on too far because we want 841 00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:44,450 to talk about your book which is an 842 00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:46,790 excellent book the moral arc people just 843 00:32:52,450 --> 00:32:48,350 really check it out it does a great job 844 00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:52,460 of like we say kind of retracing this 845 00:32:57,670 --> 00:32:54,110 history and putting it in a different 846 00:33:00,160 --> 00:32:57,680 context that for me was new and very 847 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:00,170 eye-opening but just to make a small 848 00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:03,110 point on that last thing of aunt Mellie 849 00:33:06,850 --> 00:33:05,420 or whatever her mind is I mean you might 850 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:06,860 look at the research into terminal 851 00:33:14,140 --> 00:33:10,370 lucidity if you go into any extended 852 00:33:15,730 --> 00:33:14,150 life or end-of-life care facility and 853 00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:15,740 you talk to the nurses and the doctors 854 00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:18,470 there you'll find people that regularly 855 00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:20,750 report folks who have been in long-term 856 00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:23,990 coma have severe dementia and near the 857 00:33:29,650 --> 00:33:26,240 final moments of their life will sit up 858 00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:29,660 in bed and demonstrate unexplainable 859 00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:32,660 lucidity and they'll sit and talk to the 860 00:33:37,810 --> 00:33:35,150 people about important events about 861 00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:37,820 important things and then they'll die so 862 00:33:43,990 --> 00:33:40,550 yes sir there are stories like that but 863 00:33:46,750 --> 00:33:44,000 that most people who die slowly in in 864 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:46,760 cases like this my mother was one they 865 00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:48,170 don't do that correct 866 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:51,590 why why do some do and some don't 867 00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:53,420 well now we're talking science aren't we 868 00:33:57,970 --> 00:33:55,070 now we're talking we need a man on the 869 00:34:00,070 --> 00:33:57,980 moon effort to answer that question so 870 00:34:05,260 --> 00:34:00,080 maybe we'll get there someday okay 871 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:05,270 sounds good but the moral arc you know 872 00:34:08,980 --> 00:34:06,530 I'll give you some more examples of this 873 00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:08,990 that you know like Robert Wright's book 874 00:34:13,810 --> 00:34:11,990 non-0 which is really quite a good book 875 00:34:16,330 --> 00:34:13,820 he hits just a little bit at the end 876 00:34:18,220 --> 00:34:16,340 that it's that perhaps this whole thing 877 00:34:20,020 --> 00:34:18,230 this you know playing more zero-sum 878 00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:20,030 nonzero-sum games there's 879 00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:22,480 some games that is this tendency toward 880 00:34:27,340 --> 00:34:24,730 cooperation slightly more than 881 00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:27,350 competitiveness you know maybe edges out 882 00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:30,230 over over the course of time maybe was 883 00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:31,820 built into the universe from the very 884 00:34:35,350 --> 00:34:34,070 beginning and so he kind of makes the 885 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:35,360 argument that you know had it not been 886 00:34:38,649 --> 00:34:37,010 humans it might have been the an Turtles 887 00:34:40,930 --> 00:34:38,659 doing what we're doing now and if not 888 00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:40,940 Neanderthals maybe Homo erectus not Homo 889 00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:42,020 erectus he goes all the way back you 890 00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:43,580 know eventually chimps and gorillas 891 00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:45,590 would be doing what we're doing now so 892 00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:47,750 that that's pushing the in it that sort 893 00:34:52,060 --> 00:34:50,600 of inevitability to the arrow of moral 894 00:34:54,220 --> 00:34:52,070 progress more than I'm comfortable with 895 00:34:55,629 --> 00:34:54,230 I I'm willing to actually say the whole 896 00:34:57,850 --> 00:34:55,639 thing could go down the toilet 897 00:35:00,100 --> 00:34:57,860 you know if Putin got you know decides 898 00:35:01,630 --> 00:35:00,110 to unleashes you know nuclear arsenal 899 00:35:03,940 --> 00:35:01,640 you know we're back in the Stone Age I 900 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:03,950 don't think that's gonna happen but you 901 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:05,330 know that I don't think it's inevitable 902 00:35:09,730 --> 00:35:07,850 I'm open to the fact that that could 903 00:35:11,830 --> 00:35:09,740 happen you know the one other thing I 904 00:35:14,620 --> 00:35:11,840 throw and we're mentioning the the UCL a 905 00:35:17,020 --> 00:35:14,630 and Jeffery Swartz what Schwartz showed 906 00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:17,030 is he's a researcher and he was 907 00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,260 interested in helping people who had 908 00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:22,400 obsessive-compulsive disorder what he 909 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:24,470 found and sure you've run across us in 910 00:35:30,190 --> 00:35:26,470 your science research is this idea of 911 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:30,200 self-directed neuroplasticity so twenty 912 00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:31,670 years ago we didn't know that brains 913 00:35:36,430 --> 00:35:33,710 could rewire themselves that 914 00:35:38,740 --> 00:35:36,440 neuroplasticity was even possible well 915 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:38,750 now what he's shown in the laboratory 916 00:35:44,530 --> 00:35:41,210 also replicated at Harvard and at Yale 917 00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:44,540 is that folks with their own attention 918 00:35:52,570 --> 00:35:48,320 with their own directed thoughts can 919 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:52,580 rewire the brain yeah but yeah research 920 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:55,010 why is that not just neurons firing 921 00:35:59,290 --> 00:35:57,170 influencing other neurons all within a 922 00:36:01,210 --> 00:35:59,300 brain it's just still brain do you have 923 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:01,220 to look at dr. Schwartz's work because 924 00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:03,890 what he says quite convincingly I think 925 00:36:07,990 --> 00:36:06,320 if you go down your path Michael you 926 00:36:10,990 --> 00:36:08,000 have a chicken and the egg problem right 927 00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,000 I mean if thoughts make brains and 928 00:36:17,860 --> 00:36:14,000 brains make thoughts then you wind it 929 00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:17,870 back and how did it all start so this is 930 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:20,960 like a primary cause problem in the 931 00:36:24,970 --> 00:36:22,850 evolutionary equation right because now 932 00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:24,980 we have the idea that thoughts can 933 00:36:30,010 --> 00:36:27,680 actually change them but what are 934 00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,020 thoughts they're just it's just neurons 935 00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:32,720 firing well that's it but that I think 936 00:36:36,370 --> 00:36:33,710 it begs that 937 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:36,380 question of what our thoughts and our 938 00:36:42,579 --> 00:36:39,760 thoughts strictly viable in the route 939 00:36:44,349 --> 00:36:42,589 materialistic reductionistic model dr. 940 00:36:46,750 --> 00:36:44,359 Schwartz doesn't think they are but then 941 00:36:48,849 --> 00:36:46,760 that's just as you said that's just one 942 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:48,859 guy out there that's right 943 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:51,050 you know Sam outside Sam again because 944 00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:54,290 he's not too far removed from Jeffery 945 00:36:59,770 --> 00:36:56,150 Schwartz oh he's there he's there he 946 00:37:01,630 --> 00:36:59,780 just doesn't realize it well I'll let 947 00:37:03,490 --> 00:37:01,640 Sam speak for himself on that front but 948 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:03,500 what my point is that I think Sam would 949 00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:05,810 agree meditation you know and and 950 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:07,220 self-awareness and all these things are 951 00:37:12,430 --> 00:37:10,010 really good for health for you know 952 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:12,440 wellbeing for rewiring your brain to do 953 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:15,890 all sorts of things but but without any 954 00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,650 of the you know this this sort of I 955 00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:20,480 don't know which words to use I don't to 956 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:22,190 say woo woo but just you know the sort 957 00:37:26,109 --> 00:37:23,930 of supernatural element it's still just 958 00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:26,119 neurons firing this is different neurons 959 00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:28,640 influencing other neurons and and round 960 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:30,470 around and a loop they go and you can 961 00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:33,410 you can will that to happen by you know 962 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:34,700 some other parts of your brain that 963 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:37,190 where the will is located so I don't 964 00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:38,450 know that we need to invoke anything 965 00:37:43,690 --> 00:37:40,400 more than that doctor sure you have an 966 00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:43,700 excellent trailer for the book up on up 967 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:45,470 on YouTube that people can check out 968 00:37:50,170 --> 00:37:47,930 what else are you doing out there or is 969 00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:50,180 there any movie projects or anything 970 00:37:54,220 --> 00:37:52,460 associated with this or you oh yes yeah 971 00:37:56,829 --> 00:37:54,230 now I'm working on having a film made of 972 00:37:58,810 --> 00:37:56,839 the moral arc thanks again to dr. 973 00:38:01,270 --> 00:37:58,820 Schreber for joining me today on skeptic 974 00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,280 oh I have one question to tee up from 975 00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:03,680 this interview I could actually have a 976 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:07,160 long long list of questions including 977 00:38:12,010 --> 00:38:09,170 one about dr. schirmer's casual 978 00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:12,020 dismissal of all experiences that might 979 00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:14,089 ever be discovered that our paranormal 980 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:17,200 as being incorporated into our natural 981 00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:18,410 worldview 982 00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:20,480 once we have a way of measuring and 983 00:38:25,150 --> 00:38:22,520 explaining them boy talk about the 984 00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:25,160 promissory note of materialism and the 985 00:38:30,099 --> 00:38:28,160 idea that we should have faith that dr. 986 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:30,109 Shermer science as we know it will 987 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:32,810 figure everything out if we just give 988 00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:35,210 him enough time but I'm not gonna focus 989 00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:37,190 on that question or any of my other ones 990 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:39,740 because I want to focus on one question 991 00:38:44,109 --> 00:38:42,410 kind of a big complicated question to 992 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:44,119 tee up from this interview and it 993 00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:46,730 centers around this very troubling 994 00:38:49,930 --> 00:38:47,569 situation 995 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:49,940 with the article he wrote in scientific 996 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:51,609 America the article was titled 997 00:38:56,739 --> 00:38:54,170 demon-haunted brain and it was published 998 00:38:58,420 --> 00:38:56,749 in the March 2003 issue of Scientific 999 00:39:01,900 --> 00:38:58,430 America and in it 1000 00:39:03,339 --> 00:39:01,910 dr. Shermer reported on this research by 1001 00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,349 renowned near-death experience 1002 00:39:07,779 --> 00:39:05,839 researcher dr. PIM van Lommel who is a 1003 00:39:10,989 --> 00:39:07,789 cardiologist in the Netherlands who 1004 00:39:13,089 --> 00:39:10,999 studied this phenomena extensively for 1005 00:39:15,189 --> 00:39:13,099 many many years with number of patients 1006 00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:15,199 across a number of hospitals and came to 1007 00:39:19,809 --> 00:39:17,359 a conclusion that that a conventional 1008 00:39:23,799 --> 00:39:19,819 explanation for near-death experiences 1009 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:23,809 was not possible to this dr. Shurmur 1010 00:39:29,890 --> 00:39:27,170 wrote his article and said that van LOM 1011 00:39:32,049 --> 00:39:29,900 was research delivered a blow to the 1012 00:39:35,709 --> 00:39:32,059 idea that mind and brain could be 1013 00:39:39,549 --> 00:39:35,719 separate now the question is do you 1014 00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:39,559 think this crosses the line in terms of 1015 00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:42,079 science journalism or do you think as 1016 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:44,420 dr. Shermer positioned it in this 1017 00:39:50,609 --> 00:39:47,209 interview that it's just the discussion 1018 00:39:52,989 --> 00:39:50,619 session it's just his analysis of it I 1019 00:39:54,969 --> 00:39:52,999 have to jump in here and offer up my 1020 00:39:57,339 --> 00:39:54,979 opinion because I think it goes way over 1021 00:40:00,339 --> 00:39:57,349 the line it would be like me saying that 1022 00:40:02,049 --> 00:40:00,349 dr. Shores book the moral arc delivers a 1023 00:40:04,989 --> 00:40:02,059 blow against the idea that religion 1024 00:40:07,329 --> 00:40:04,999 hasn't played a role in defining our 1025 00:40:09,939 --> 00:40:07,339 moral character as a country because he 1026 00:40:12,339 --> 00:40:09,949 cites religious leaders like dr. Martin 1027 00:40:15,099 --> 00:40:12,349 Luther King as being influential in 1028 00:40:17,289 --> 00:40:15,109 defining our morals well of course it's 1029 00:40:19,359 --> 00:40:17,299 true he does cite dr. Martin Luther King 1030 00:40:20,439 --> 00:40:19,369 but his conclusion is of course exactly 1031 00:40:23,979 --> 00:40:20,449 the opposite 1032 00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:23,989 it's that dr. King's religiosity isn't 1033 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:26,089 what's important and instead it's his 1034 00:40:28,959 --> 00:40:28,249 ideas thinking reason logic that's 1035 00:40:31,269 --> 00:40:28,969 important 1036 00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:31,279 well the question is do I have an 1037 00:40:37,059 --> 00:40:34,640 obligation to point out that even though 1038 00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:37,069 I'm using evidence from his book the 1039 00:40:42,819 --> 00:40:39,440 opinion I'm drawing is exactly the 1040 00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:42,829 opposite well this is analogous to the 1041 00:40:49,959 --> 00:40:45,920 situation in 2003 with dr. van LOM Oh 1042 00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:49,969 dr. van Lamas conclusion after all of 1043 00:40:54,699 --> 00:40:52,609 his research after compiling all this 1044 00:40:57,339 --> 00:40:54,709 data and presenting this data in a 1045 00:41:00,759 --> 00:40:57,349 peer-reviewed journal was the opposite 1046 00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:00,769 of what dr. Schurman reported on so I 1047 00:41:03,819 --> 00:41:01,430 think there's 1048 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:03,829 some room for maybe some disagreement on 1049 00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:06,170 this I mean a reporter does have a right 1050 00:41:11,950 --> 00:41:09,260 to analyze and offer opinions but I do 1051 00:41:15,460 --> 00:41:11,960 think there's a certain obligation to 1052 00:41:18,099 --> 00:41:15,470 make it clear when their opinions vary 1053 00:41:20,170 --> 00:41:18,109 that sharply from the findings of 1054 00:41:22,359 --> 00:41:20,180 scientific research particularly in this 1055 00:41:25,359 --> 00:41:22,369 case we have a peer-reviewed very 1056 00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:25,369 tightly presented bit of research so I 1057 00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:26,960 think it's noteworthy I think it's 1058 00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:29,089 noteworthy that he still can't back down 1059 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:31,670 from that he can't see any problem with 1060 00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:33,530 that and in spite of the fact that 1061 00:41:39,250 --> 00:41:36,740 scores of research has been published 1062 00:41:42,730 --> 00:41:39,260 since then corroborating exactly what 1063 00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:42,740 dr. Vaughn lhamo concluded he's still 1064 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:44,990 holding to this position but we might 1065 00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:47,569 even ask the larger question and I think 1066 00:41:54,730 --> 00:41:51,040 this is the gaping hole in the Atheist 1067 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:54,740 skeptical view of the world is why the 1068 00:42:00,250 --> 00:41:57,050 heck does Shermer care so much about 1069 00:42:03,339 --> 00:42:00,260 near-death experience anyway his 1070 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:03,349 strongest points are his points against 1071 00:42:09,339 --> 00:42:05,960 religious orthodoxy and fundamentalism 1072 00:42:12,339 --> 00:42:09,349 he's somehow as has atheism in general 1073 00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:12,349 and skeptics in general created this 1074 00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:15,260 strange brew of science and religion 1075 00:42:19,329 --> 00:42:17,599 that has evolved into their own crazy 1076 00:42:22,539 --> 00:42:19,339 creed that no one could really take 1077 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:22,549 seriously after all who really believes 1078 00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:24,770 they're a biological robot leading a 1079 00:42:28,930 --> 00:42:26,420 meaningless life in a meaningless 1080 00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:28,940 universe Michael only the most desperate 1081 00:42:34,510 --> 00:42:31,359 church haters can swallow that stuff 1082 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:34,520 oops there I go after my olive branch 1083 00:42:38,740 --> 00:42:36,170 offering at the beginning of this 1084 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:38,750 episode towards the atheists and their 1085 00:42:43,809 --> 00:42:41,510 valid points about religious orthodoxy 1086 00:42:46,150 --> 00:42:43,819 I'm kind of pulling that olive branch 1087 00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:46,160 back and beating them over the head with 1088 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:48,319 it a little bit but in this case I think 1089 00:42:53,710 --> 00:42:51,290 it's warranted what do you think tell me 1090 00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:53,720 of course the place to do it is through 1091 00:43:00,039 --> 00:42:56,960 the sceptical website at ske P tik Oh 1092 00:43:01,839 --> 00:43:00,049 calm you can leave a comment there jump 1093 00:43:04,809 --> 00:43:01,849 over to the forum where I like to hang 1094 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:04,819 out and hear your great ideas or connect 1095 00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:07,490 with me on Facebook or Twitter or just 1096 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:10,220 send me an old-fashioned email so I have 1097 00:43:15,250 --> 00:43:12,130 a number of interesting shows coming up 1098 00:43:18,010 --> 00:43:15,260 appearances coming up as well I'm going 1099 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:18,020 to keep pounding away at this atheist 1100 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:20,090 question some more I think there's many 1101 00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:22,610 many angles to it that I want to explore 1102 00:43:27,850 --> 00:43:25,820 and I think it is so central to many of 1103 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:27,860 the issues that we really care about 1104 00:43:33,790 --> 00:43:30,530 here so I'm eager and excited to do it 1105 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:33,800 and I hope you will enjoy it as much as 1106 00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:37,010 I enjoy bringing it to you well then 1107 00:43:42,070 --> 00:43:39,200 that's gonna do it for today I hope